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 Post subject: M1 carbine suppressor suggestions
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:12 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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I was just looking over Tornado tech's site and noticed they offer barrel threading for M1 carbines.

I was wondering what anyone here might be using or would suggest for a can on this little carbine? I've got one set back that hasn't been touched in years but it just might be a fun little river gun with a can on the end.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:14 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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I make the mistake of asking that question awhile back on this same section......boy! did I get trashed. no one makes subsonic ammo for a .30 so why bother- no you can't use a 9mm sub-gun can for a .30 because of the pressure - it'll blow up. why the hell would anyone want something like that??

Shall I go on?

I say do whatever makes you happy - people shoot canned 5.56, 308, and 7.62X39 all the time. Surely someone makes a .30 can for one of Mr. Williams cute little guns :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:35 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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I'm sorry you got treated like that.

I realize no one makes subsonic ammo for it. I don't use subsonic ammunition in my .223's and .308's so that wasn't much of a consideration for me.

If it's threaded to mate to my 762SD adapters or even a YHM adapter then I was thinking I could run a .30 cal can on it.

If Tornado tech is going to the trouble to thread the gun and list it as a factory regular offering then someone somewhere evidently knows more than the people in the last thread that helped you so much.

We'll see how bad things go downhill this posting attempt.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:40 pm 
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Unless it is a commercial version of the gun,you will kill the value. i just had this discussion with my neighbor last night.

There are a lot better calibers/guns to suppress.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:10 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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OkieSnoop wrote:
no you can't use a 9mm sub-gun can for a .30 because of the pressure - it'll blow up. why the hell would anyone want something like that??


No way dude. 30 carbine has a SAAMI max pressure of 40,000 psi. 9mm? 35,000. That 5000 extra is going to make ZERO difference because he will be shooting it from a 16 inch barrel.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:34 am 
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Silent But Deadly

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Schulze, good guess.

Quickload simulation:
9mm simulating Black Hills 115gr +P at 1300 fps; and Georgia Arms 147gr +P at 1050 fps. 5" barrel.

115gr +P 1318 fps, muzzle pressure 5459 psi
147gr +P 1052 fps, mp=3951 psi

30 Carbine with 16" barrel
Simulating Federal 110gr at 1990 fps; and Corbon 100gr at 2025 fps

100gr at 2105 fps mp=3835 psi
110gr at 2002 fps mp=3659 psi


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:04 am 
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I've never messed with it, but we have multiple customers shooting subsonic reloads through their carbines.
I can't give out specific loads, but one guy is using 155Gr progies (requires some screwing around with seating depth apparently), powder is HODGDON HS-6, works fine through a 9mm can.
I'd recommend working up your loads without the can to make sure they're stable.

I have a customer shooting 200grn progies, not sue what the powder is.

Remember to deactivate you booster on your 9mm can using the factory supplied spaced being that it's a fixed barrel.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:10 am 
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Silent But Deadly
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So you really could get away with a subgun can on a .30 carbine? Neat.

I think I'd want a dedicated custom can. Just as a matter of personal preference. Eccentric like a Maxim would be freakin' sweet.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:53 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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AAA wrote:
I've never messed with it, but we have multiple customers shooting subsonic reloads through their carbines.
I can't give out specific loads, but one guy is using 155Gr progies (requires some screwing around with seating depth apparently), powder is HODGDON HS-6, works fine through a 9mm can.
I'd recommend working up your loads without the can to make sure they're stable.

I have a customer shooting 200grn progies, not sue what the powder is.

Remember to deactivate you booster on your 9mm can using the factory supplied spaced being that it's a fixed barrel.


I am surprised to hear that
I did make some test when i had one
160 grain cast bullet round flat nose , hard to get a more dense bullet
It key holed at subsonic velocity (50 meters )sea level 20degre C
The bullet took the riffling ,so it was spinning ok
The riffle twist is 1 in 16
my goal was a subsonic that did cycle
But sins the bullet did keyhole i gave up the idea


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:58 pm 
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Do what you like.

Image


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:37 pm 
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Sweeet!Looks like fun!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:30 am 
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Silent But Deadly

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HairTrigger wrote:
Do what you like.

Image


Although I like what you did, I think there are better platforms to play with. If I had an old carbine, I couldn't do that to it. I like the carb in the original state.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:44 pm 
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It is a universal M1, so it is not like I ruined a piece of history. :) Now if I would have done that to my Rock-Ola, I would be kicking my own ass. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:25 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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johndoe3 wrote:
Schulze, good guess.

Quickload simulation:
9mm simulating Black Hills 115gr +P at 1300 fps; and Georgia Arms 147gr +P at 1050 fps. 5" barrel.

115gr +P 1318 fps, muzzle pressure 5459 psi
147gr +P 1052 fps, mp=3951 psi

30 Carbine with 16" barrel
Simulating Federal 110gr at 1990 fps; and Corbon 100gr at 2025 fps

100gr at 2105 fps mp=3835 psi
110gr at 2002 fps mp=3659 psi


Thanks for the data.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:42 pm 
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I am a big fan of the .30 carbine and think its an awesome idea to supress it. I am not sure that I would thread a nice WWII era example, but kahr arms is making repros again that look nice and are reasonably priced... (I havent met anyone that has shot one yet though)

I dont know why everyone makes a big deal about subsonics not being a viable option when every other supersonic round under the sun is supressed and raved about :roll:

Keep us posted on what ya come up with and how it works.

How do ya like yours HairTrigger?

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Yeah, everytime I think about a 4.0L getting sodium-whatever-the-hell they're using poured into it to destroy it forever I wanna go out and shoot every fucking polar bear in the Artic.


"Now Stan. If you want to put that gun to good use, then use it to shoot my hookers penis off" -Some guy on American Dad


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:09 am 
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Silent But Deadly
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BrianBerto2 wrote:
I am a big fan of the .30 carbine and think its an awesome idea to supress it. I am not sure that I would thread a nice WWII era example, but kahr arms is making repros again that look nice and are reasonably priced... (I havent met anyone that has shot one yet though)

Unless Kahr has really stepped it up, don't waste your time. I had one. It was so fucked up I traded it off without ever shooting it. Stick with USGI or Plainfield.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:52 am 
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Silent But Deadly

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I have heard the the Kahr guns sucked but that they have worked out the problems. Also, maybe look for an IAI, commercial gun with no real value and it takes GI parts.

I love the idea of a suppressed carbine. It's a nice handy little gun that suffers from the cartridge being designed by Army brass, not by gun designers. No matter what some experts say about it, I'm not about to stand in front of one.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:22 pm 
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If the barrel was a 1:8 or a 1:10 you could shoot 150 gr 30-30 bullets in it easily.

It would be as good as the 300 whisper IMHO

Sub sonic would work well in a 9 mm pistol can.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:57 pm 
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Diomed wrote:
Unless Kahr has really stepped it up, don't waste your time. I had one. It was so fucked up I traded it off without ever shooting it. Stick with USGI or Plainfield.


Sorry to hear that. I have an M1SB they made a few years ago that is top notch. My only complaint about it is that it only runs semi auto... there must be something wrong with it lol. Id be interested to hear from people with recently produced Kahr Carbines to see if they have improved any.

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mudshark wrote:
Yeah, everytime I think about a 4.0L getting sodium-whatever-the-hell they're using poured into it to destroy it forever I wanna go out and shoot every fucking polar bear in the Artic.


"Now Stan. If you want to put that gun to good use, then use it to shoot my hookers penis off" -Some guy on American Dad


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:32 am 
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Silent But Deadly
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HairTrigger wrote:
Do what you like.

Image


AND I LIKE! 8)

Not crazy about the scope, I really like the iron sights on the carbine myself.

I really like the M-1 carbine a lot. I have one, made in August 1943 by Inland Mfg. It's all matching numbers, no import marks, all original (except the sling on it now is a reproduction, the original dated sling kinda fell apart from age) I have only put 50 rounds though it. There is no visible wear on the feed ramp parkerizing, overall my M1 looks like it lived it's life in an arsenal. It is by far the nicest M-1 carbine I have ever seen, and I have turned down some impressive offer for it. Problem is the rifle is so nice I am afraid to shoot it on a regular basis.

I want to get another M-1 carbine to play with as I love the basic design. The light weight, low recoil, balance, sights, and basic ergonomics are not bad for a rifle from the era, etc... I even like the 30 carbine cartridge! If I get another it won't be a safe queen I can't play with. If I get another I will have the barrel threaded and try both of my 9mm cans with it and probably start reloading the 0.30 carbine cartridge myself.

For many shooters the M-1 carbine might just be the best all around rifle, I think it may be more pleasant to shoot than dare I say, an AR15.


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 Post subject: subsonic carbine loads
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:28 am 
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I recently filed a form 1 and plan to make a Maxim style silencer for the M1 carbine.
I preperation for this plan I have been chronographing some different loads.
For a manually operated load , 4.5 gr. Unique and a 110 gr fmj gave a average vel of 1125, which was nice except for the fact that 4 out of 11 gave a vel over 1162 fps.
Next I tried 4 gr Unique , which gave a average vel of 1000 fps with a high of 1060 fps. Both of these loads left the case in barrel and should be very quiet. In this 4 gr load I used a plated Berry bullet. Should be a nice load for a manually operated set up.

I wanted to get a subsonic load that would cycle the action, so I bought some Berry 150 gr flat point for the 30-30.
The first thing a learned was the flat point bullets wouldn't feed in the carbine. So I made a die that would round the tip slightly.
I loaded these with 5.5 gr Unique. I seated the bullets so they would barely fit in the mag. These fed perfectly and would eject but the bolt didn't come back far enough to pick up the next round. In order to feed properly I'd have to increase the charge.
Two problems---- This load already averaged 1180 fps and the bullets all showed signs of tumbling.

So--- I'm afraid the carbine is not well suited for bullets over 110 gr.
I'll have to choose between the std ammo and a sonic crack and a manually operated setup without the sonic crack.
I won't lighten the slide or spring to solve the problem and I won't shoot keyholing ammo out of a silencer.
Jim C


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:53 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

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Jim, if the .30 Carbine has the standard 1 in 20 twist, then obviously you need to replace the barrel with something like a 1in12 or 1in10 twist if you want to shoot heavier bullets. ...but you probably knew that. The bullets with more mass (180gr or 200 gr) would probably cycle the action.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:06 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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You could also enlarge the gas port to improve cycling. You would need a 1-12 barrel at least though. 30 carbine spec is 1-16 twist, too slow for a 150.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:30 pm 
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johndoe3 wrote:
Jim, if the .30 Carbine has the standard 1 in 20 twist, then obviously you need to replace the barrel with something like a 1in12 or 1in10 twist if you want to shoot heavier bullets. ...but you probably knew that. The bullets with more mass (180gr or 200 gr) would probably cycle the action.

johndoe3,
Everything you said is correct. All my carbines are nice with correct barrels. I'm not willing tochange anything .
I'll be happy with quiet manual and sonic full power loads. After all people put silencers on manually operated guns all the time.
Just wanted to let others know what I found out to save them the trouble.
Jim C


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:24 am 
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johndoe3,

something to ponder on - stabilization is also related to bullet length unless I'm mistaken.

There's a equation called Greenhill's Equation (for cast lead bullets) that allows you to calculate the length of bullet required to stabilize in a certain twist rate barrel with a certain velocity.

k(d²)/t = l

Where:

k is a constant of 150 for velocities at or below 1800 fps and 180 for velocities above 1800 fps.
d = bullet diameter in inches
l = bullet length in inches
t = twist rate.

So....


150(0.308²)/20=l

150(0.094)/20=l

150x0.0047=l

0.705"=l

So in theory a cast lead wad cutter bullet .705" in length should stabilize.

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Hillsboro OR 97124
PH: (503)690-8000
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