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 Post subject: AAC Blackout flash suppressor mount for M4-1000/2000
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:52 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 8:03 pm
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Sorry it took so long but I just had a chance today to put a second range day on this new mount. About a month ago I posted that I had trouble with my Phantom & SOCOM mount from my M4-2000 2006 model suffering from serious carbon fouling to the point it took two people to wrestle the can off the rifle. Kevin from AAC offered to exchange one of my mounts for the new Blackout mount. I received the new mount very quickly (thank you AAC) and installed it on one of my AR's.

The new mount has a very tough and attractive finish (scarmor?) along with the new flash hider style that looks like an old M16A1 flash hider with 3 prongs. But the best thing about the new mount is that the can is full tight with the spring in the last valley. My other 3 mounts all suffered from the loosening up a half click thing. There were never any concerns for a baffle strike or accuracy issues (i left it a half click loose all the time). The new mount locks up tighter than a bull's ass 8) I have about 300 rounds through the new mount with zero carbon locking issues. The can screws on and off easily every time. I am using a 16" AR RR with Fed AE 55 grain, some full auto mixed with semi.

Even though there were never any concentricity issues with the old mounts, the fact that this new one locks up perfectly makes my teeth sweat, it makes a near perfect can into a perfect can.

I do have one question about the new mount, it rings like a bell when fired without the can, and it rings if I flick it with my fingernail. The 3 prong setup seems to act like a tuning fork. It is not too disconcerting but it is peculiar.

I am definetly pleased and impressed by the new mount, thanks AAC for standing behind your product and sending me this awesome mount.


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 Post subject: Re: AAC Blackout flash suppressor mount for M4-1000/2000
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:56 pm 
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dieselten wrote:

I do have one question about the new mount, it rings like a bell when fired without the can, and it rings if I flick it with my fingernail. The 3 prong setup seems to act like a tuning fork. It is not too disconcerting but it is peculiar.


What is your question? You are worried about a 100dB ring sound being superimposed onto the 165dB gunshot? It is not really peculiar. The Smith Vortex does it the same way.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:06 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

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Whoa, take your hand off your gun cowboy.

I apologize for the vagueness of my question. You are right in that the 165db gunshot will totally mask the bell sound, but how did I hear the bell sound? It is because the rifle shot duration is very short, the ringing sound is much longer. But like I said, it is peculiar...to me. I have never heard a Smith whatever you are talking about or any other rifle part that sounds like a tuning fork, so that is why I asked. I wanted some feedback on the bell thing. Thanks.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:13 pm 
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I heard it on a video. I have never heard it in person. It is because it is an open-ended design. Were you wearing electronic-muffs when you heard it?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:14 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

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I have a Smith Vortex and it does the exact same thing. Rings when I flick it, rings when I shoot. It's part of the voodoo that helps it to reduce flash so well :wink: .

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:16 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

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Yes, electronic muffs when I fired the rifle, but no muffs at all when I flick it with my finger in my living room.

Thanks Jpratt.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:18 pm 
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JPratt06 wrote:
I have a Smith Vortex and it does the exact same thing. Rings when I flick it, rings when I shoot. It's part of the voodoo that helps it to reduce flash so well :wink: .


The Evo9 Triad 3 lug adapter has a cool ring when you flick it too.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:38 pm 
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dieselten wrote:
Yes, electronic muffs when I fired the rifle, but no muffs at all when I flick it with my finger in my living room.

Thanks Jpratt.


What I think it happening is the muffs block out the gunshot, and then crank up the boost of the sound microseconds after the gun shot.


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 Post subject: Re: AAC Blackout flash suppressor mount for M4-1000/2000
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:29 pm 
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Silent But Deadly
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dieselten wrote:
I do have one question about the new mount, it rings like a bell when fired without the can, and it rings if I flick it with my fingernail. The 3 prong setup seems to act like a tuning fork. It is not too disconcerting but it is peculiar.


I LOVE that ring. I haven't heard the Blackout, but I used to love that ring on other shooter's Vortex flash hiders.

I wish I'd have known about the Blackout FH before I went and ordered the Phantom mount. I guess I'll have to buy that one too!


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 Post subject: ringing
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:38 pm 
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Silent Operator

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Actually, both of my '06 M42K Phantom mounts ring like crazy if you knock them on anything.

I love the suppressor though.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:52 pm 
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I have read that the forks vibrating is what causes flash hiders like the vortex and black out to work. They resonate, like a tuning fork from the gun being fired, and then vibrating causes the flash to break up, so it does act like a tuning fork. By the way does AAC have these in stock? I ask because I asked about one last Thursday when I dropped off my in need of service new 762 SD 07 and was told they didn't have any, so how did you get one?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:59 pm 
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The tuning fork effect does not reduce flash. At least I don't think so.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:04 pm 
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I talked with one of the guys at Smith Enterprises about this same thing, and he told me that is how it works. How bout the other part of my post, does AAC have any blackout flash hiders for the M4 2K 07 model?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:15 pm 
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I would be surprised if anyone there knew how a flash suppressor works. Very few people do, even many people who design them. I know this from reading patents and seeing how the inventors both use junk science in their descriptions and also patent features which my testing shows makes flash worse.

AAC does not have BLACKOUT flash suppressors for the M4-2000 Mod-07 yet. Not too long though.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:29 pm 
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So they developed a wonderful flash hider without knowing how one works? I only took interest in it because of what I do for a living. It was explained to me as this. We've all seen the video of the AR & AK one youtube with a high speed camera and how the barrel vibrates and whips during firing. This combined with the bullet running down the barrel excites the natural frequency of the flash hider causing the forks to shake. They said it was this shaking/vibrating that broke the flash up.

http://www.defensereview.com/article135.html


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:57 pm 
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Sonja Sommers invented it -- not whoever you spoke to. But yes, anyone (including Pete Kokalis of SAR) who says it works because of it moving is incorrect.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:05 pm 
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Would you be so kind as to indulge into you infinite wisdom how an open prong flash hider works so that I will not be confused in the future? And I know who invented the Vortex, as it is not hard to find that fact on the net.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:22 pm 
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No, I don't was to share how they work as that knowledge is what allowed me to design the BLACKOUT and I would like it to stay the best flash suppressor for as long as possible. I had to read over 500 hard-to-find pages of military research to learn about the mechanism for flash.

It is not possible for vibration to reduce flash because it would not start vibrating until the blast wave already occurred. By then the gases and unburned power would be past the flash suppressor.

I could also prove it to you by getting one of them heat-treated to some super-high HRC (file hard) so that it would be brittle, but so stiff that it would not ring -- and it would still reduce flash just as much.

This in no way diminishes that the Vortex is an excellent flash suppressor. I am only saying that it does not work through movement.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:17 pm 
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Mr Silvers, I am a vibration analysist. I make my living by going around to industral plants all over the south east and other parts of the country anaylizing vibration problems in static and rotating machinery. I have the equipment to tell you the exact natural frequency of any steel object on planet earth. You are not going to change the natural frequency that much of any metal object by hardeneing it with heat. The only way is to change the shape or mass. I use my equipment to tell engineers like yourself how to change the natural frequency of metal objects such as industrial fans all the time. I can tell them what speeds to avoid running to calm down vibration. I am sorry, but you will not be able to harden a metal object to the point that it does not have a natural resonance frequency. You may change the frequency, by changing the properties of the metal, but it will not be by much. The only way to accomplish the effect of what you speak of is to weld all the prongs together or machine them in such a fashion that they cannot move independantly. The prongs will vibrate before the bullet leaves the barrel, the same as if I took a hammer and hit they barrel, it will excite the prongs; this I can prove to you. It is called a bump test. The bullet traveling down the barrel with create friction, which will excite the natural frequency of the barrel and the flash hider. Hince the reason I mentioned creating friction on a crystal glass. If you would like, you can heat treat one to the point that you are satisfied and we could use my equipment to test the natural frequency of it; before and after hardening. I'm not far from Atl


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:25 pm 
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Hootiewho wrote:
Mr Silvers, I am a vibration analysist. I make my living by going around to industral plants all over the south east and other parts of the country anaylizing vibration problems in static and rotating machinery. I have the equipment to tell you the exact natural frequency of any steel object on planet earth. You are not going to change the natural frequency that much of any metal object by hardeneing it with heat. The only way is to change the shape or mass. I use my equipment to tell engineers like yourself how to change the natural frequency of metal objects such as industrial fans all the time. I can tell them what speeds to avoid running to calm down vibration. I am sorry, but you will not be able to harden a metal object to the point that it does not have a natural resonance frequency. You may change the frequency, by changing the properties of the metal, but it will not be by much. The only way to accomplish the effect of what you speak of is to weld all the prongs together or machine them in such a fashion that they cannot move independantly. The prongs will vibrate before the bullet leaves the barrel, the same as if I took a hammer and hit they barrel, it will excite the prongs; this I can prove to you. It is called a bump test. The bullet traveling down the barrel with create friction, which will excite the natural frequency of the barrel and the flash hider. Hince the reason I mentioned creating friction on a crystal glass. If you would like, you can heat treat one to the point that you are satisfied and we could use my equipment to test the natural frequency of it; before and after hardening. I'm not far from Atl


I know it won't change the frequency. I was suggesting that the amplitude would be reduced yet the flash level would remain the same.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:37 pm 
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You said it would not ring, hence not vibrate. The only way to keep it from vibrating is to shift the natural frequency to the point that nothing that happens during the gunshot will excite it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:40 pm 
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I meant it would vibrate less. Since you have equated vibration to flash, I suggested that an experiment would be to test if the flash increased as the vibration was reduced. My hypothesis is that as vibration is reduced, the flash would remain constant. I am not an Engineer -- don't like trains.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:17 pm 
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Mr. Silvers, as I tried to explain to you, if you have the same action happening (gun shot) hardening the flash hider will not change its resonate properties. The only way to change the amplitude is to use a different stimulant force. ie hit the gun with a rubber mallet instead of firing the gun. It will still vibrate, but vibrate less as far as amplitude goes. A tuning fork or Vortex flash hider resonates at a set frequency, determined by god himself. I said the flash hider works, because as the bullet travels down the barrel, it causes the flash hider to vibrate. This starts before the bullet leaves the barrel. This was described to me by Smith Enterprises and I understand it because it makes sense. They claimed the flash is disipated by the fact that the forks/prongs are already vibrating before the bullet leaves the barrel, and the ocsilation of the forks causes turbulance which disipates the flash. I don't know how much more I can try and describe this to you. I am not saying that your reasearch into flash hiders is not valid. I am simply stating what I was told by Smith Enterpriese over 4 years ago and trying to relate it to my field of work. Vibration would not be reduced on the flash hider by hardening it, it would be the same, but if you added to the mass, it would change what frequency at which they flash hider naturally resonates. Personally I think we are beating a dead horse here, but from what I see in a day to day line of work, Smith Enterprises explaintaon of how it works makes a lot of sense. Sorry; I figured you for an Engineer from how much you know.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:25 pm 
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Sorry, I did not know that increasing the stiffness of an object would not reduce the amplitude at which it vibrates. If it does not, then my experiment would not prove anything.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:57 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

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Hootiewho wrote:
Mr. Silvers, as I tried to explain to you, if you have the same action happening (gun shot) hardening the flash hider will not change its resonate properties. The only way to change the amplitude is to use a different stimulant force. ie hit the gun with a rubber mallet instead of firing the gun. It will still vibrate, but vibrate less as far as amplitude goes. A tuning fork or Vortex flash hider resonates at a set frequency, determined by god himself. I said the flash hider works, because as the bullet travels down the barrel, it causes the flash hider to vibrate. This starts before the bullet leaves the barrel. This was described to me by Smith Enterprises and I understand it because it makes sense. They claimed the flash is disipated by the fact that the forks/prongs are already vibrating before the bullet leaves the barrel, and the ocsilation of the forks causes turbulance which disipates the flash. I don't know how much more I can try and describe this to you. I am not saying that your reasearch into flash hiders is not valid. I am simply stating what I was told by Smith Enterpriese over 4 years ago and trying to relate it to my field of work. Vibration would not be reduced on the flash hider by hardening it, it would be the same, but if you added to the mass, it would change what frequency at which they flash hider naturally resonates. Personally I think we are beating a dead horse here, but from what I see in a day to day line of work, Smith Enterprises explaintaon of how it works makes a lot of sense. Sorry; I figured you for an Engineer from how much you know.


*golf clap*

thanks for summing that up


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