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 Post subject: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:55 am 
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Does anyone have hands on experience with the new Liberty Victory. I'm looking for a lighter 7.62 thread on can for my Rem. 700 aac-sd, FN-Fal, and Saiga .308. I'll occasionally use it on my AR .223. The semi-autos will seldom be fired fast. I've done my research, but am still banging my head trying to make the right choice. Budget is around $1000 +/_. Suggestions on current models?
FYI. I have a Liberty Freedom .223/.22lr for my AR SBR and CZ 453 that I really like. It's heavy, but works very well.


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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:01 pm 
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i dont have any experience with the Victory, but a good friend of mine has the Freedom 308 and its amazing..the only downside I see is the weight. The Victory is my next planned 308 can. Dave tells me they sound about the same, with the Victory maybe having having a lower tone but the Victory is of course a lot lighter.


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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:31 pm 
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Do yourself a favor and WAIT until the Libery 308 cans are comparatively tested against other production cans.

Major has been doing great testing over at the other forum.

The Liberty can might be AMAZING, or it might be less than average. I would wait for testing to see.

I recently re-discovered just how good the AAC Cyclone is for it's size, weight, and cost.


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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:42 am 
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If you want light then go with the Victory. Dave still has the weights listed as heavier than what they are..Torch is listed as 24.5 ounces and mine weighs 22 on the nose. We held the Victory and my Gemtech M402 can which weighs 17 ounces flat and the Victory felt more like 15 ounces..

I was in the same seat as you and decided just to go with the Freedom and a second generation Essence instead of a Victory..Its going on a 24 inch AR-10 anyway so I won't be able to tell.. :lol: I only ordered another Essence so far so I may still go with a Victory as well..Gota decide between the two soon.. The square baffles are brilliant as they aren't exposed then to the blast..so another nice feature to that design..

Do you mean you have the Constitution? The .223 cans they make are that one and the Torch.

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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:08 am 
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Chondro wrote:

Do you mean you have the Constitution? The .223 cans they make are that one and the Torch.


They do make another one..the Liberty Varminter..but its dealer specific I believe, Its like an 8 inch 223 Freedom.


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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:27 am 
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Sorry. I meant the Constitution. Just came off the Liberty site and had the name on my mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:20 pm 
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http://nfatalk.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=5
Side by side testing of the Freedom


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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:15 pm 
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dtom29 wrote:
http://nfatalk.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=5
Side by side testing of the Freedom


With the manufacturer supplying the test can!!!

I personally will wait for Major to review them with off the shelf cans. There are a few things you can do (aperture shrinking, cherry picking, different/heavier/more expensive baffle stack) to make 'A' can test better. I would not accuse Liberty or anyone of this of course, but I'm sure it is not unheard of in the history of silencer sales.

The Victory, or Freedom, or Pandora, or whatever they are calling this week's can is probably a nice part. I'll just wait for Major or someone else with a production unit to test them before getting at all excited. Any Chondro, please don't speculate on weights as if Liberty only lists heavier weights, they could be just as likely to post heavier right? What I take away from your post about weights is that Liberty can not be bothered to list the correct weights on their site, this is not a feature, it's a bug.

Anyhow, I like my independent testing to be independent.


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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:39 pm 
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I see where you are coming from Este and I dont doubt that it happens, but on the other side of it, Id put money down, saying that Dave is as honest as they come. I know you are not saying he's not, just throwing that out there!

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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:06 pm 
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82nd airborne wrote:
I see where you are coming from Este and I dont doubt that it happens, but on the other side of it, Id put money down, saying that Dave is as honest as they come. I know you are not saying he's not, just throwing that out there!


No, he insult Dave before and will do it again. Actually I would call Dave BRUTALLY honest.

Independent tests are best but ALSO best when NEW tested equipment is tested against mill standard and other testers. :o For someone who acting not quick to judge he sure judge Quickly! He also no research reasons for things between the lines.

Este has said he's "tired of the TL hype" yet not own or test one. We all know the Sparrow is the hype king for 2011. Maybe he no get the memo. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:27 pm 
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Screw it..

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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:21 am 
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Chondro wrote:
Screw it..


I see the posting and it was good. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:13 am 
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Oh no, I have upset the Liberty Brothers (tm) by offering a contradicting opinion. Instead of just jumping on the bandwagon I suggest recommending independent testing, how dare I :)


Last edited by este on Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:00 am 
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Quote:
Do yourself a favor and WAIT until the Libery 308 cans are comparatively tested against other production cans.

Major has been doing great testing over at the other forum.

The Liberty can might be AMAZING, or it might be less than average. I would wait for testing to see.

I recently re-discovered just how good the AAC Cyclone is for it's size, weight, and cost.


- I second this. Independant testing helps cancel out variables that might be used by the manufacturer to give themselves an edge over a competitor. I don't know of anyone having done this before in the suppressor industry, but I do know that it happens in others. I don't have any reason to doubt the integrity of the guys at Liberty, but I also do not know any of them personally. My money is valuable to me, thus I always rely on multiple testings by several independant groups before I committ to a new can purchase, regardless of the manufacturer. Just good business in my opinion...


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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:49 pm 
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It's Buillshit....everyone knows it's bullshit...Dave is as honest as the day is long. I'm wondering how este can trust the Major. Does the Major have any favorites? Could he "fudge" the results?
I personally trust the Majors results, just as I trust Kel (Gemtech), Brooks and Richard (Thompson Machine), Dave(Liberty), Tim (SAS). They were all at the testing session that I referred to. A Very nice group of guys, all willing to help out the others during the testing. You go ahead and wait for your "independent testing" I'm just not sure how you "KNOW" that those tests will be good.... :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:19 pm 
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I don't think anyone is doubting the testing protocol itself at that event. In fact, I was there myself and can personally vouch for the accuracy and validity of the process. Bill and Plunky did everything right by the book. No hanky-panky going on there. I think we can all agree that the testing procedure in place that day was beyond reproach. There were +25 witnesses!

The only thing we don't know for sure are the facts about the individual suppressors themselves. Is it possible any, some or all manufacturers were using 'special' cans, ones that may not be exactly like the ones rolling off the production lines? The answer must be yes, it was possible. Will we ever know or can we somehow prove it? Absolutely not, there's no way to tell as these weren't purchased from dealer stock. So, it's totally unfair to speculate - because we can't possibly know either way.

Every person there was a professional and I'm willing to give them the utmost benefit of the doubt. I'll agree that the possibility exists that a manufacturer could have submitted a doctored suppressor for testing. But we have no evidence anyone did so, and as such: I'd be very careful not to insinuate that. No reason to even bring the matter up in conjunction with specific names.

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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:51 am 
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Be reading comprehension here is crazy.

NO ONE ever said anyone cheated or lied. Not me or anyone else. I feel like it's not independent testing if the mfg shows up with his can, supplies the ammo, and helps run the test. That's just not independent testing.

Liberty has a new modification to their cans every week. I'll wait for Major to test a production can before making any judgments about it. I would also like to titsworth results but that guy is gone it seems.


As for socom's testing, he has just recently tested a 308 can on and AR that he reports is under 140 at muzzle and ear. I am EXTREMELY skeptical of this. I have seen meters run on ARs and like Majors results they are loud.

I will not shoot a semiauto centerfire rifle without plugs ever just from having done it then getting pretty bad ear ringing. It feels too loud and most meter results confirm that. Socom's says his LWRC piston is hearin safe with the AAC spr can, that I definitely do not believe having shot a similar setup before.


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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:46 am 
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este wrote:
Oh no, I have upset the Liberty Brothers (tm) by offering a contradicting opinion. Instead of just jumping on the bandwagon I suggest recommending independent testing, how dare I :)


Really what wagons? . :lol: Have you even tried the wagon? (Ooops)

Did I not talk about testing?

Howevers, I don't consider Majors tests complete since there is only one of each type so far using only 10 shots of one ammo one one host in 100 deg weather. Its going to take a long long time at this rate to get any consistency until he has the time to go back and match these test. Non are Choreographed eithers and you can see possible spikes in ammos.

Yet to some it's already the gold standard and heaven forbids Daves many tests could even come close! :o

I will say that if Dave brought a can to a test, the production can would be the same or even better by then. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:56 am 
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este wrote:
Be reading comprehension here is crazy.



Yes, especial me! You see I read between the lines and see you insulting Liberty every chance you get.

You didn't even have the balls to reply back to Dave after insulting him on another forum (I can quote :D )

Then todays stinger.
Quote:
Liberty has a new modification to their cans every week


Yes, this is called moving forward, improving, searching, striving for the best .

There are two types of people, those that think this is good and those that do not. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:11 am 
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este wrote:
Be reading comprehension here is crazy.

NO ONE ever said anyone cheated or lied. Not me or anyone else. I feel like it's not independent testing if the mfg shows up with his can, supplies the ammo, and helps run the test. That's just not independent testing.

Liberty has a new modification to their cans every week. I'll wait for Major to test a production can before making any judgments about it. I would also like to titsworth results but that guy is gone it seems.


As for socom's testing, he has just recently tested a 308 can on and AR that he reports is under 140 at muzzle and ear. I am EXTREMELY skeptical of this. I have seen meters run on ARs and like Majors results they are loud.

I will not shoot a semiauto centerfire rifle without plugs ever just from having done it then getting pretty bad ear ringing. It feels too loud and most meter results confirm that. Socom's says his LWRC piston is hearin safe with the AAC spr can, that I definitely do not believe having shot a similar setup before.


Este since you've decided to become such a prick and continue to both attack Libery and Dave I think you should explain. Please elaborate on all the changes that have been made to the Liberty cans.

The Essence was never meant to be a production can..It was done as a novelty. Short story..the coaters were a nightmare to deal with so the design was changed. A titanium version was offered of the Mystic. Anyone with an IQ of 75 could see that coming. The Victory was offered for a light weight all titanium version and they now offer an integral 22/45.

Now please elaborate on all the changes that have taken place. Just give me one change on any of the core designs..Hell a finish option even that you are talking about. List these changes that have taken place weekly! Please enlighten us with your wisdom and quit acting like your in the market for any of these caliber cans anyway..Just get your insults in and be done with it.

And for your information if you could even begin to grasp these numbers then look at the Torch. I can shoot that all day long without ears on any of my AR's or M-16 with no discomfort at all.

Your the only person I've heard complain because more choices are offered.

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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:39 am 
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I'm certainly not going to argue with Chondro about Liberty. That's just pointless.


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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:24 am 
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este wrote:
I'm certainly not going to argue with Chondro about Liberty. That's just pointless.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6wRkzCW5qI :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:28 pm 
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este wrote:
The reading comprehension here is crazy.

NO ONE ever said anyone cheated or lied. Not me or anyone else.


Fixed it for you....
Sure you did, first thing you typed was your doubts that any of the Manufactures could be trusted to bring production cans to the test. I guess it was more of a "I'm not saying they would, but I'm not trusting the results because I'm saying they would".
I'm STILL waiting to hear why we can trust the Major? I mean, by your standards no one can be trusted.
(I was at the testing also, everything Wicked said was very true. I also trust the Majors testing...)


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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:30 am 
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Nowhere did Este say Liberty was intentionally misleading people. I didn't even think he was implying it when I read his posts. I personally don't feel that manufacturers are providing modified special cans for testing (although I think it has happened in the past for sure). The first step on that slippery slope, though, is choosing an "A" can out of all the prototypes and sending it to someone like Titsworth.

Where he does have a point is that a manufacturers numbers can be a little more favorable than they intend if they are not careful about some things. What happens is during the development process, you come up with a design and a prototype that you are really excited about. You fully intend to supply this to the market and you want to show it off. The problem is once the design is transferred to manufacturing, real world issues arise and the design is usually modified. You also have production variation that adds up which can also affect the performance. Some of this occurs without the designer ever even realizing it (beleive it or not) and that original design is no longer representative of what the customer is getting.

So, even though a manufacturer intends to show off what they feel will make it to the market--it may not actually happen that way. I'm not saying Liberty did this. I just know this happens and people should be aware of it.

As I read this thread, I'm coming to the conclusion that some of you may be a little too emotionally attached to Liberty. It's a good product. Say it like it is and let people make their choice--for better or for worse.

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 Post subject: Re: Liberty Victory
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:58 pm 
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Yes I would say that is possible if this was isolated and not for everything he's said in all his other posts. He even started a post awhile back suggesting that what you just bought now is going to be obsolete from Liberty in another few weeks. I just felt it fair to ask what those changes are. He's also made it clear that because the engraving doesn't suit him then the quality of the internals has been skipped over as well. And this is on cans that have the internals posted all over the web.

This was actually his nicest post towards Liberty thus far. I'm just reacting to this and the others as is Emilio. Dave doesn't beta test his cans on the consumers. But he does bring cans like the Essence, Infiniti, Victory and Legend to market because of requests. If anything I thought the complaint would be that it took so long to get the Victory and Legend to market. Since Dave wants to get them right from the start it does take longer. Though his idea of longer is much less than other manufacturers. :wink:

We all know whats going to happen. este is going to come across a Liberty can..He's gonna look it over..Begin to slowly caress it. Look closely at the internals and start coming around. Stick it on a host and instantly become a convert. Then he'll be putting my raving to shame. :lol:

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