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 Post subject: Silencing an AirForce Condor or Talon SS air rifle?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:45 pm 
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I ask this question on Bower's Board months ago with no answers. I read somewhere that a suppressor would not silence the spring-action/piston-driven models (I have an old RWS Diana), but could silence the forced-air ones like the AirForce Talon SS & Condor. Anyone have a threaded AirForce rifle and screwed your .22 can on it? I bet if it works would be just the thing for those pesky pigeons and not to alert the noisy neighbors, esp. if they stealthy PETA gun-hating types. Worth looking into? Bored at work and just wondering. Pecos Bill out.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:10 pm 
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The Talon SS already has a large chamber just begging for baffles.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:07 pm 
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I happen to enjoy shooting high power air rifles, among them is an AA TX MKIII springer cal. .177, I've cronied 10.5 grn. pellets from it @ 920 fps. this particular model has a built in suppressor, which with out it would make quite a pop, you would be surprised but with the suppressor it slows the expelled air enough just to hear a small volume rush out, the greatest sound would be from having your face against the stock and hearing the vibrations transfer from the stock to your ear through conduction.
But to game down range they would hardly hear it, maybe if two rabbits were feeding close to each other the impact of hitting one rabbit in the head would spook the other, but not from the rifle itself.
Another air rifle which benefits from a suppressor is the RWS line of model 48's they make a pretty good thwack sound upon firing in .22 but placing a Webley pro system single chamber suppressor removes the thwack, you really don't need much with spring piston air rifles.
PCP is another matter, they use a higher volume of air, some at over 3000 psi. and can sound like a .22 short, perhaps louder, depending on barrel length and can benefit from a firearm type suppressor, although some are designed for the air to travel through felt to slow the air down, some baffle models have only one or two baffles and the better ones more.
They are also making carbon fibre models now which can be seen on the BAR web site.
For more info bring up the Yahoo English web site and type in "silencers" which will show a few pages of them.
I understand the model you have can be quieted quite well, just do a search, or try the airgun forum, they have links to other forums which cater to your model.
So in answer to your question, yes they do work on air rifles and yours would be easy to quiet.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:31 pm 
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Silent But Deadly

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A few random questions:
Over the years I have read (on-line) that in other countries, people enjoy shooting these premium airguns, and they shoot them with suppressors. When this is mentioned, someone always chimes in to announce that this suppressor is an NFA item even though it is being used on an airgun.
Ok, but what if you want to legally buy an airgun suppressor ?
Are they available in the US ?
Anyone know anything about them ?

I don't think I would personally buy one, but it is interesting.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:22 am 
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They are not marketed in the US. You should try a silencer made for the .17 HMR or .22lr. It is not clear they provide much net reduction since there are no hot gasses to cool.

Here is an anti-silencer rant. He is so anti-silencer he said he will testify, if asked, that any airgun silencer can be used on a firearm EVEN if it is an internal part of an airgun and not removable. What a prick. With friends like this we don't need enemies: www.beemans.net/silencers_on_airguns.htm
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:qs ... =firefox-a

Here is a Talon-SS. You can remove the end-cap and put a felt tube in it.

Image


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 Post subject: Airgun silencers
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:45 am 
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Airgun silencer in the US are not regulated, just gotta make sure it will not work on a real firearm, that is the challenge. If I were going to do one it would be integral and permanant to the barrel.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:40 am 
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Let us remember this, a suppressor is an NFA device all unto itself. It knows no mate, it knows no heritage. You build a suppressor, that's what youve done.

The "confusion" over this subject relates to the fact that in the UK most "airgun" silencers are really rimfire silencers. Parker Hale, Webley, AirStream, Daystate...bla bla bla...


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 Post subject: Re: Airgun silencers
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:51 am 
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David Hineline wrote:
Airgun silencer in the US are not regulated, just gotta make sure it will not work on a real firearm, that is the challenge. If I were going to do one it would be integral and permanant to the barrel.


I read a thread about a kid that wrote to ATF about a pint ball gun silencer. His design went back and forth with them several times, he has his letters posted on his page (I'll have to try and find it) but basically it ended up like this:

"Is this paper towel tube with tissue paper in it a silencer that will work on a firearm?"

ATF: "Yes, that is a silencer ... form 1 blah blah blah"


Last edited by mpallett on Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:29 pm 
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Ok, so a typical airgun suppressor is just a normal firearms suppressor such as those designed for .22LR ? I don't know a whole lot about how suppressors work, but my idea of how a normal suppressor worked seems different than what it would take to suppress an airgun.

One of the problems with these threads (IMO) is that everyone acts like the point is to circumvent the NFA. This thread is specifically not: I have no desire to get around the NFA and IF I ever decided to buy an airgun suppressor, I would assume that I would go through exactly the same proceedure as any other suppressor that I have ever purchased. I have read enough of these threads to know that BATFE considers an airgun suppressor to be an NFA item, so I see no sense in beating that dead horse.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:57 pm 
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I started this thread, because I already have a .22lr suppressor and I just wanted to know if it would be worthwhile to spend $600+ for an Airforce air rifle, when I already own several spring/piston ones. I guess I could buy one, maybe a Condor; have Mark McWillis make me a threaded adapter; break new ground and report my findings? I can't believe that no one hasn't already do this yet? Best Wishes! Pecos Bill out.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:03 pm 
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There are certianly some differences in the how and why. The point is that many think that it's "OK" and those that know are warning that it isn't.

No one is saying that the point is to get around NFA, it's that by doing something like this...you will be and maybe not even know it.


444 wrote:
Ok, so a typical airgun suppressor is just a normal firearms suppressor such as those designed for .22LR ? I don't know a whole lot about how suppressors work, but my idea of how a normal suppressor worked seems different than what it would take to suppress an airgun.

One of the problems with these threads (IMO) is that everyone acts like the point is to circumvent the NFA. This thread is specifically not: I have no desire to get around the NFA and IF I ever decided to buy an airgun suppressor, I would assume that I would go through exactly the same proceedure as any other suppressor that I have ever purchased. I have read enough of these threads to know that BATFE considers an airgun suppressor to be an NFA item, so I see no sense in beating that dead horse.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:10 pm 
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SOT_II wrote:
There are certianly some differences in the how and why. The point is that many think that it's "OK" and those that know are warning that it isn't.

No one is saying that the point is to get around NFA, it's that by doing something like this...you will be and maybe not even know it.




So it seems the only real (100% safe) answer is to buy a .22LR or a .17 can and make an adapter for the air rifle.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:23 pm 
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Yes...now here's the "rub" It would seem from my vast knowledge of these complicated subjects, that a silencer that is more volumemetric is better for airguns than the ultra small US rimfire suppressors.

Also most of the modern airguns come with some form of threading or are adabtable to threading via a clamp on collar that is 1/2 UNF...v. the 1/2 28 tpi from the US ones.

If ever in the UK check out the Webley BBMF, Daystate Air Stream, PH Phoenix, Theoben, Logun etc and so on.

Here's a neat link to see some pictures and the "guts" of some of them.
http://www.targetsports.co.uk/index.php?cPath=232
The main differences are:
Volume and size
Many use Plastic
Many have "scotchbrite" style packing




mpallett wrote:
SOT_II wrote:
There are certianly some differences in the how and why. The point is that many think that it's "OK" and those that know are warning that it isn't.

No one is saying that the point is to get around NFA, it's that by doing something like this...you will be and maybe not even know it.




So it seems the only real (100% safe) answer is to buy a .22LR or a .17 can and make an adapter for the air rifle.


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 Post subject: Re: Silencing an AirForce Condor or Talon SS air rifle?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:07 pm 
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Hi, I have a Talon with a threaded barrel and a .223 suppressor works best with them for quieting them down.


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 Post subject: Re: Silencing an AirForce Condor or Talon SS air rifle?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:04 am 
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If the can is threaded and can be fitted to a firearm it is a NFA item. If it is part of a air gun and is not able to be fitted to a firearm it is a airgun part and not a NFA item no mater what the function is. There are several airguns markted and made in the US that come with airgun suppersors. This is what I was told by two large airgun dealers and a airgunsmith who built them.
A airgun is not a firearm, makeing a non-firearm quiter is not against the law.

JD


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 Post subject: Re: Silencing an AirForce Condor or Talon SS air rifle?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:38 am 
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My boy has RWS Diana. :D

OK, how do rifles like el "whisper" get away with it and we can't modify? :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Silencing an AirForce Condor or Talon SS air rifle?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:24 am 
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I have used the air-force Condor many times and it is awesome. That said it is expensive to get all the accessories. On the note of suppressors my neighbor ordered one that slipped over the barrel and it was by all accounts a suppressor. It had stainless baffles and a aluminum tube. He never shot it with the suppressor because he was very worried about legal implications. So he sent it back for a refund and is still fighting the company on that. They say it's legal because it slips over the barrel and a set screw hold it in place.It could be very easily put on a rifle. This was a very well know internet company in the U.S. Now we have since tried a couple of .22lr suppressors on the rifle and they work OK,the higher volume cans work better like Millennium fat .22 by Mark White

Hope that helps


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 Post subject: Re: Silencing an AirForce Condor or Talon SS air rifle?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:05 pm 
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da bugman wrote:
If the can is threaded and can be fitted to a firearm it is a NFA item. If it is part of a air gun and is not able to be fitted to a firearm it is a airgun part and not a NFA item no mater what the function is. There are several airguns markted and made in the US that come with airgun suppersors. This is what I was told by two large airgun dealers and a airgunsmith who built them.
A airgun is not a firearm, makeing a non-firearm quiter is not against the law.

JD


So essentially a airgun manufacturer could develop and apply any methodology they wanted to build as quiet a device as they wanted with no regulation? Assuming, of course, that whatever is designed can't also be used for firearms? What about other companies\individuals who wanted to manufacture aftermarket suppressed barrels\etc?

If that's the case, I'm surprised that it isn't done\marketed much. I've seen a few airguns with suppressors built into the barrel, but you'd think that would be a huge selling\competition point for airgun makers.


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 Post subject: Re: Silencing an AirForce Condor or Talon SS air rifle?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:22 pm 
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It is too hard to make a design that the ATF could not strap onto a 10-22 and fire one shot.

Evidently it does does not matter that they can already strap on a Coke(R) bottle and suppress a 10-22.

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 Post subject: Re: Silencing an AirForce Condor or Talon SS air rifle?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:34 pm 
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silencertalk wrote:
It is too hard to make a design that the ATF could not strap onto a 10-22 and fire one shot.

Evidently it does does not matter that they can already strap on a Coke(R) bottle and suppress a 10-22.


So pretty much you'd be limited to things like integral barrels and what have you (i.e. something that would only work for the airgun for which it was designed)?


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 Post subject: Re: Silencing an AirForce Condor or Talon SS air rifle?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:04 pm 
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http://www.pyramydair.com/p/Benjamin-Ma ... 7QodCREchQ

This was introduced last year by Benjamin/Crosman. Has a shroud over the barrel and 4 removable baffles. Pretty quite. Likewise the Talon SS can easily have baffles added into its shrouded barrel. I prefer the Marauder myself.


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 Post subject: Re: Silencing an AirForce Condor or Talon SS air rifle?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:47 pm 
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You might want to try one of these: http://www.tko22.com
I was skeptical as to how well it would work but it is amazing. I live in a wooded suburb and try and keep the tree-rat population down. The first time I shot my Benjamin Discovery I was nervous that someone might have called the police because of the loud report. I ordered this "muzzle brake" and it took at least 3/4 of the noise down. I don't know how it gets around NFA restrictions but apparently it does.


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 Post subject: Re: Silencing an AirForce Condor or Talon SS air rifle?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:32 am 
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^^This^^. My neighbor has one on his Benjamin Discovery and it is stupid quiet. Or, if you have money to spend the Benjamin Marauder is already suppressed...and very quiet. Read the review on pyramidair.com. Airgun suppressors are very simple, much more so than firearm suppressors, but tend to have more volume.

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 Post subject: Re: Silencing an AirForce Condor or Talon SS air rifle?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:50 pm 
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A friend of mine has a Gemtek can. The one that fits over the M16 flash suppressor( halo ?). And also has the air gun the uses the scuba dive tank to recharge the air gun. He had me thread the barrel for the M16 flash suppressor. It is very quiet when you turn the gun down to about 7 and breaks the sound bearer at 10. I would say it sounds like he was shooting the Super Cobery 22 ammo in his AR with the Halo on.

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 Post subject: Re: Silencing an AirForce Condor or Talon SS air rifle?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:32 pm 
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Yes, a 22 silencer can screw onto an air rifle and work OK. Airgun silencers that they sell in Europe specifically for airguns are a little different because there is a difference between the 'blast' of an airgun discharge and the blast of a powder firearm. In general, they use less baffle and mostly get their suppression from volume. A 22lr silencer will work fine but not be optimal. It will work well enough that 'optimal' is kind of acedemic. Long story short, if you have a silencer already then go ahead and thread up whatever airgun you want. No harm in threading up a bunch of hosts for your can.

I've been wanting to thread up a CO2 22 pellet gun for a while but they all have skinny little barrels so they'd need threads and an adaptor. Sooner or later I'll do it, but I just haven't got around to it. I've never threaded up a springer because the only spring action airguns I have are break barrels. I don't want to get in the habbit of grabbing onto an expensive can and pulling it sideways hard enough to cock the action.

As far as putting baffles into a Tallon SS, there is no point in that, The big shroud is already a really, I mean really good integral suppressor for that air rifle. You hear the striker next to your ear and the impact on the target. Not much to improve on there. Likewise the Marauder is just a quiet as you will ever get it. If you buy a Condor then getting it threaded makes sense, except that by the time you buy the gun and get it threaded you will spend the same as if you'd just bought the shrouded version.

There is a lot of contension about the whole airgun silencer thing. Like RSilvers pointed out, there are some real dickheads out there. The firearm world is slowly getting educated about legal suppressors but we've all encountered guys who "know" they are illegal and will tell us all about it. The airgunners are just another bunch of people who have mixed levels of understanding about it. Some airgunners have taken the time to learn the rules, others have not. Lack of knowledge doesn't seem to stop people from holding strong, visceral, emotional points of view. Or to quote The Scarecrow "Seems like people without brains do a whole lot of talking."


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