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 Post subject: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:13 pm 
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First post here. Wish I had found this forum a long time ago. So since I haven't had as much time as I would like to search this forum, I'll probably ask some stupid questions. But I don't have much time to make my decision since I already sent in my state paperwork, and will need the design before I send in my ATF form 1.

I currently have a 22 silencer that I bought, and now I'm wanting to make a SBR and silencer in 5.56. I plan on using a 10.5 inch barrel, and 7 x 1.5 inch silencer. I hope to handload subsonic 75gr bullets. I already have those laying around for regular power loads. Hopefully I'll be able to tune the AR to run those in semi-auto mode. I probably won't use regular power loads in it.

So my question is, which "easily produced" baffle style seems to be the most effective? I do have a lathe and light milling capabilities. I don't have CNC. I have produced muzzle brakes using the "swiss cheese" monocore look, and they are very effective. I'm leaning in that direction, but if the other's are more effective, I'd probably go that way. I like easy, and I'm impatient, but on the other hand, who cares if it takes forever to produce a K baffle from steel. It's not like I'm in business to do it. M baffles are the easiest to produce. They're basically formed washers with spacers. I tend to not like the spacer designs due to the spacers taking up volume, but if they work, they work. My current 22 silencer( Lauer) is basically spacers and washers with holes drilled at an angle to upset the flow.

So what's your opinion on what is most effective?

Thanks,
Gene


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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:24 pm 
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viewtopic.php?f=10&t=24866&p=243914&hilit=tac+16+dimensions#p243914

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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:45 pm 
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jimmym40a2 wrote:
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=24866&p=243914&hilit=tac+16+dimensions#p243914


Thanks for the link. That one actually goes along with one of my theories/wonderings. Seems possible that you don't really need to "scoop" the blast from around the bullet since it is already trying to expand, so the flat washers would stop it just fine. It does seem like that design could benefit from the angled holes.

Gene


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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:13 pm 
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rcrdps wrote:
But I don't have much time to make my decision since I already sent in my state paperwork, and will need the design before I send in my ATF form 1.


You do not need to send a design/print or anything. ATF doesn't care. I know what the F1 says; but nobody actually submits a design with their paperwork. All you need to provide is the overall length, caliber, maker name and serial number. That's it.

So, you can submit your F1 while your still working on the design (as long as you know the O.A.L.). A F1 doesn't ever expire. Don't rush the design process, take your time there. The build is easy. Few people screw that part up. Many use less than good designs though. I spend about 10:1 - design to build time.

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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:18 pm 
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Hi,

M-Baffles are not washers+spacers.

M-Baffles are 60º Cones + Spacers. You need the Spacers to keep the Cones away in the distance you consider best. They take space, yes, the space you need for expansion/compression. Spacers are your friends !

Depending on Gun, Caliber, … you have to also consider holing the Baffles. They are also your friends if you know how to put them to work …

M-Baffles (or Cones or …) are all based on the OMEGA patented ones.

The Spacer can be machined in one part with the Cone. There are pros and cons on that.

With regards to MonoCores, if you like and have good experience with "swiss cheese" monocore look, Why don’t you keep doing that way. For .223RM it’s only a matter of sizing it correctly.

Finally, with regards to K’s, they can be as easy to build as M’s. Think about it. It’s just geometry.

Best,

Paul

PS: I like cheese but not the swiss one, sorry … too many holes in there …

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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:27 pm 
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Wicked wrote:
rcrdps wrote:
But I don't have much time to make my decision since I already sent in my state paperwork, and will need the design before I send in my ATF form 1.


You do not need to send a design/print or anything. ATF doesn't care. .


Thanks for the info. I've been wondering that.


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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:32 pm 
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PaulNoiseLess wrote:
Hi,

M-Baffles are not washers+spacers.

M-Baffles are 60º Cones + Spacers. You need the Spacers to keep the Cones away in the distance you consider best. They take space, yes, the space you need for expansion/compression. Spacers are your friends !

Depending on Gun, Caliber, … you have to also consider holing the Baffles. They are also your friends if you know how to put them to work …

M-Baffles (or Cones or …) are all based on the OMEGA patented ones.

The Spacer can be machined in one part with the Cone. There are pros and cons on that.

With regards to MonoCores, if you like and have good experience with "swiss cheese" monocore look, Why don’t you keep doing that way. For .223RM it’s only a matter of sizing it correctly.

Finally, with regards to K’s, they can be as easy to build as M’s. Think about it. It’s just geometry.

Best,

Paul

PS: I like cheese but not the swiss one, sorry … too many holes in there …


If the washer's are formed, then they are basicaly M's when you put them with spacers. That's what I was talking about. I can do any of them, but want the one people think is the most quiet.


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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:37 pm 
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jimmym40a2 wrote:
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=24866&p=243914&hilit=tac+16+dimensions#p243914


Found this in a search. Close to the same design as that Tac, but I like how they crimped in the blast baffle, thus not needing a spacer to make up the blast chamber, so it has more volume. Have thought of screwing or welding that baffle in, though welding would make it hard to take out the others and clean. But if there's no aluminum in it, it could probably just be dipped in solvent.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:23 pm 
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rcrdps wrote:
jimmym40a2 wrote:
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=24866&p=243914&hilit=tac+16+dimensions#p243914


Found this in a search. Close to the same design as that Tac, but I like how they crimped in the blast baffle, thus not needing a spacer to make up the blast chamber, so it has more volume. Have thought of screwing or welding that baffle in, though welding would make it hard to take out the others and clean. But if there's no aluminum in it, it could probably just be dipped in solvent.
Image


If you really want to get that baffle in there without a spacer tube you could always buy a tube with the OD you want but go with a thicker wall. Then bore the ID of the tube to the Length & OD of the baffle stack. That will leave you with a nice shoulder for the blast baffle to rest against. On the opposite side bore the expansion chamber side wall thickness you really want.

Sort of like this image I made.

Image

The red is the original tube.

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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:50 pm 
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ghostdog662 wrote:
If you really want to get that baffle in there without a spacer tube you could always buy a tube with the OD you want but go with a thicker wall. Then bore the ID of the tube to the Length & OD of the baffle stack. That will leave you with a nice shoulder for the blast baffle to rest against. On the opposite side bore the expansion chamber side wall thickness you really want.

Sort of like this image I made.

Image

The red is the original tube.


Gee,.... now why didn't I think of that. Thanks for the tip!


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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:03 pm 
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I have not tried crimping myself yet but it seems to offer solutions easier than boring the tube, I'm way too lazy for that.

Increased volume, less weight, reduced or nil gas flow around the outer edge of the blast baffle. If the blast baffle had a reasonable length flange then several plug welds could also be applied after the crimp process was completed. Probably unnecessary if a good crimp was achieved.

Good examples of crimp cans below and how it was achieved...

viewtopic.php?t=35711


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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:56 am 
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Trex wrote:
I have not tried crimping myself yet but it seems to offer solutions easier than boring the tube, I'm way too lazy for that.

Increased volume, less weight, reduced or nil gas flow around the outer edge of the blast baffle. If the blast baffle had a reasonable length flange then several plug welds could also be applied after the crimp process was completed. Probably unnecessary if a good crimp was achieved.

Good examples of crimp cans below and how it was achieved...

viewtopic.php?t=35711


Roll crimp,.... you folks have all of the good ideas. Was that really a modified tubing cutter like they said, or actually made for crimping? Still though, shouldn't be too hard to dull a tubing cutter. The drawback is you won't be removing that baffle any time soon, but if you were going to weld your ends anyways,....

I dream of having a lathe that big one day,.....

Gene


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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:19 am 
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Paul- "M-Baffles (or Cones or …) are all based on the OMEGA patented ones" this is false

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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:09 am 
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Hi,

Glad to be wrong on the OMEGA thing !. Thanks delta.

Best,

Paul

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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:29 am 
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no problem Paul. :D

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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:07 pm 
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Ghostdog, I like your idea of leaving a ring/shoulder inside the tube for the blast baffle to but up against.

But i think a much easier solution would be to machine a ring that would slip inside the tube and braze or solder it in place. If you allow at least 1" sq. of surface area over the outside edge of the ring you would be fine. Most solders are over 5K psi (many much stronger) in strength, brazes are much stronger than that.

This is assuming that you are using a steel or SS tube. Aluminum does not solder at all well and Titanium, well I don't have any experience, but I have read that it requires a modified atmosphere to be successfully brazed in, so that is problably out of the question.


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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:23 pm 
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So far, I haven't really seen anyone say that this style is quieter than that one,...... I have recieved some great construction ideas, but still no real arguments for or against a baffle design as far as effectiveness. From searches, it seems that most manufacturers use fairly simple designs for centerfire, and then work overtime to get .22's really quiet.

Gene


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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:51 pm 
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mg81 wrote:
Ghostdog, I like your idea of leaving a ring/shoulder inside the tube for the blast baffle to but up against.

But i think a much easier solution would be to machine a ring that would slip inside the tube and braze or solder it in place. If you allow at least 1" sq. of surface area over the outside edge of the ring you would be fine. Most solders are over 5K psi (many much stronger) in strength, brazes are much stronger than that.

This is assuming that you are using a steel or SS tube. Aluminum does not solder at all well and Titanium, well I don't have any experience, but I have read that it requires a modified atmosphere to be successfully brazed in, so that is problably out of the question.


If I was that good at welding I would consider it but I don't think it is huge task to bore 1/8" of material for about 7" of length. I definitely won't argue with you that it could work. If it is easier by all means, go for it and take pictures.

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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:14 pm 
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ghostdog662 wrote:
If I was that good at welding I would consider it but I don't think it is huge task to bore 1/8" of material for about 7" of length. I definitely won't argue with you that it could work. If it is easier by all means, go for it and take pictures.


I agree, except the 1/8". I would love to do a welded design, but I'm just not sure I could do it without making it look terrible. To me, if I could weld the ends and do a crimp on the blast baffle, I could make the whole thing much lighter, and more volume. But I'm not that competent as a welder. Maybe I'll practice on some very light tubing till my form 1 gets approved, then if I'm good enough by then, I'll order my materials accordingly.


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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:04 pm 
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rcrdps wrote:
So far, I haven't really seen anyone say that this style is quieter than that one,...... I have recieved some great construction ideas, but still no real arguments for or against a baffle design as far as effectiveness. From searches, it seems that most manufacturers use fairly simple designs for centerfire, and then work overtime to get .22's really quiet.

Gene


I don't think any of us can really answer this question. The AAC Cyclone is considered one of the quietest, if not the quietest centerfire suppressors...and it uses essentially M baffles. But not all M-baffle designs are good. Too many other variables to include, baffle angle, spacing can volume,extra scoops, cuts whistles, doodads and magic pixie dust. There's good/bad K's, M's, Omega's, monocores. The devil's in the details. Try something new. Make us proud. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:28 pm 
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Dweezil wrote:
The devil's in the details. Try something new. Make us proud. :wink:


Don't tempt me. :D I already have a real hard time following plans to the detail. I tend to get an overall feel of how something works, then make it the way I see best. I'm also lazy. So cutting out M or K baffles doesn't really appeal to me, though I'd do it if I knew for sure that they'd be better. Cutting M baffles, or cones and spacers, doesn't appeal to me because I feel I could just stamp/form them easier and lighter, though possibly with less precision. I still like the crimp idea for the blast baffle, though now I'm worried I might torque the tube while trying to apply the crimp. So here's what I like currently:

Threaded muzzle end: Normal,...maybe skeletonized for more volume. Welded on. I just went outside and practiced welding on the end of a pipe, and didn't do so bad. Figure I can touch up the weld on the lathe to make it look purty.

End cap: welded on. Only 1/4" thick. EDIT: I changed my mind on this one. It will be another baffle just welded in. I won't form it as much, so it will be mostly flat except near the hole.

Blast baffle: Turned on lathe. Cone shapped. Symetrical.

Main tube and Blast baffle retention: 4130 .095 thick shaved to .065 from both ends, except for 1/8" area 2 inches in from muzzle threads. This will also hold the rest of the baffles together against the end cap. I'm tempted to go lighter on the wall thickness.

Spacers: 1.37" x .035 thick, with a cut in them so that they can be opened slightly for a spring effect, thus fitting tightly to the walls. Spacing will probably be something near .5" or less with 6 to 8 total baffles. Gotta draw it out and see what will fit.

Baffles: Formed from stainless washers that have been trued on the lathe. Forming with a blunt surface, then something sharp like a dead center makes a nice form. The dead center will expand the hole though, so you'd have to start with something much smaller than your caliber. After being formed, they'll be re-drilled at an angle for turbulence.

This all changes by the day, but that's what I'm thinking right now. I'm still tempted to try crimping in that blast baffle. Might have to play with that concept in the near future.

Gene


Last edited by rcrdps on Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm 
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Trex wrote:
I have not tried crimping myself yet but it seems to offer solutions easier than boring the tube, I'm way too lazy for that.

Increased volume, less weight, reduced or nil gas flow around the outer edge of the blast baffle. If the blast baffle had a reasonable length flange then several plug welds could also be applied after the crimp process was completed. Probably unnecessary if a good crimp was achieved.

Good examples of crimp cans below and how it was achieved...

viewtopic.php?t=35711

Those are the sexiest baffles i`ve ever seen!!!!!!!!!! :shock:

And stainless steel to boot


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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:37 am 
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I'm thinking for the crimp, I could use a follower rest with ball bearings, and I'll just have to make a little dull wheel to mount on the toolpost. The one other thing I fear about the crimp is that when you bend metal, it usually springs back slightly, so the baffle might be held in place but rattle a bit. Loctite wouldn't likely work since the ends will be welded, so the tube will be heated quite a bit,....not to mention sustained fire.

Per the welded ends, does anyone do like that one article said and thread the end after it has been welded( or screwed in for that matter). Or do you just make the part with the threads already cut? Seems to me that if you made it a very tight fit( like maybe even need to freeze it to fit), that it would be plenty straight if you cut the outside diameter and the thread while it was still chucked in the lathe. Then you could cut it off and finish the sides. With a half inch or more of threads, that gives that piece quite a bit of alignment on the tube walls, assuming it takes quite a bit to jam it in there.

Gene


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 Post subject: Re: M vs K vs monocore/swiss cheese
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:25 pm 
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Here's my current thoughts. Decided to try a reflex design to keep my SBR short. Right now they're turned baffles, but stamped baffles still intrigue me. Also, the blast baffle will probably be welded in, as will the endcaps.

Image

Gene


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